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An overdue apology and request for parley

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 19 post(s)
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:36:00 - [1] You can't do a Pay to Win model on top of a subscription based Pay to Play model. People accept Pay to Win models for games that don't have other means of paying the bills, because people understand that the server bills and development costs need to be paid. People accept PLEX because blackmarket RMT exists and can't be directly stamped out. PLEX at least manage this problem. People understand that setting up a system for paying someone who actually plays the game $15 for some isk is by far a lesser evil than having that $15 go towards encouraging hackers and bots. People accept paying a monthly subscription fee to play a game because they understand MMOs have *new content* and that running the servers isn't free. EVE likes to talk about their free expansions, but the fact of the matter is that most other MMOs do free expansions all the time. WoW is putting out a free expansion next week, and they do so about as often as EVE releases expansions. CCP is getting compensated for their work. CCP needs to stop trying to cook up ways to get paid twice. Right now CCP isn't even delivering the new content that would justify their being paid the first time.
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:58:00 - [2] Originally by: Hai Boiz I'd just like to say thank you, CCP Pann, for having the courage to step out in front of this unruly mob. I look forward to this blowing over and getting settled into my new captain's quarters. It's a little sparse right now, but I think I will enjoy sprucing it up as new items become available in that special shop. This is going to be so much fun as new things come into stations. I can't wait for the day I proudly cut the ribbon on my very own salon. Half price for all CCP characters on the full makeover. See you then :) I think you are missing the part where all the rage is about CCP getting ready to sell pay to win magic spaceship bullets in their store inside a game where you already have to pay a sub to play.
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.24 18:56:00 - [3] Originally by: The Mittani I'm late to the threadnaught because I was out drinking last night and then sleeping it off. Whoops. Points: Making martyrs out of Helicity and Liang is an act of comic incompetence, mid-PR-disaster. Greed is Good is a typical example of CCP's absolutely awful messaging. The contents itself are fairly innocuous; the one guy mentioning selling ammo is just some mook, not a producer of consequence. All the same, they might as well have had an internal newsletter called "I WANT TO **** MY CUSTOMERS" as far as the messaging impact is concerned. The timing of GiG leaking with the NeX opening is masterful on the part of the leakers and awful for CCP. I don't care about NeX prices. They can charge hundreds of dollars for sparkleponies and monocles and I don't give a rat's ass - I'm here for the spaceships. My concerns are keeping microtransactions away from the combat gameplay and fighting for balance and an improved spaceship-on-spaceship experience. Lag, supercapital imbalance, iterative ship balance, all of these things matter far more to me than a store with clothes for a space barbie. The problem with this is that you shouldn't compartmentalize things. CCP is taking subscription money to finance the development of monocles that they then turn around and sell for cash at best, or take that subscription money and funnel it to other non-EVE projects. This would be fine*, except for the fact that they are not maintaining their core game.
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.24 20:44:00 - [4] Originally by: Roonia CCP...an apology will not do im afraid. You need to take action and not just the NEX prices. You just spend I dont know how many months, years to come up with this Incarna as a ploy to basically treat players as cash cows. Instead focusing on game quality, and replay value you chose to do this?!! NO CCP, Apology will not do. Fix it and whoever has been pushing for this, fire him/her. We, the players are CCP's life line and we why you have a job. We can go on without CCP just fine, you will not without us. Make the game for the players not for CCP revenue. The revenue will come if you have more and more players. This should be your golden rule. Yea, CCP is way beyond fixing this with apologies or :words: at this point. They got themselves into this position with greed driving them to place the cart before the horse. There are going to have to be massive actions taken aimed at helping their core game.
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.24 20:49:00 - [5] Originally by: Tea Ester Elliot Wow, the white-knights are still here talking about maturity. /o\ Forgive us that we actually have a vocal opinion about the direction of the game we've played for eight years. I know you knights might be stoic enough to simply bend over and allow services to be applied, but most of us would rather keep the game we enjoy rather than see it go without a fight. Yea, the white-knights are also ignoring that the key points of contention have been laid out already, and that people are simply putting a MASSIVE exclamation point behind it.
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.25 00:32:00 - [6] Calling it now, the entire Tech4 production chain is going to be an online shopping cart with a text box to enter your credit card details into.
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.25 01:56:00 - [7] Originally by: HoboWithAShip Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 25/06/2011 01:41:08 CCP operates the "Frank Sinatra" businness model "I'll do it MY WAYYYYYYY".. ♫♪♫♪ More like the "Rage Against the Machine" business model: "**** you, I won't do what you tell me." More like the "Dire Straights" business model: "Money for nothing"
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.25 04:01:00 - [8] Edited by: Android Mindslave on 25/06/2011 04:02:51 The thing that gets me is that they think we are actually stupid. Sure, we run around and jump up and down and holler, but the underlying problems and concerns have been communicated quite clearly and intelligently. CCP simply refuses to deal with their customers. There isn't anything intelligent left to say because there is no dialog. The fact that the customers are even sticking around to jump up and down and scream is a damn *gift* to CCP. When a customer gets angry and starts yelling, that means they want to give you a second chance. They want you to fix things. The true FU is when a customer simply walks away. The fact that they think "lets just hide until they stop screaming at us" is some sort of cunning plan that is going to result in anything other than customers walking away is simply mind-blowing. Plus, you know people are going to badmouth CCP over this. I never played Starwars, I don't know exactly what the NGE is, yet I know about it and I know it adds some level of :lolsony: when it comes to MMOs. Fact of the matter is that CCP thinks they can treat us like serfs. Resources they are entitled to exploit, and that anything we want is because we are the ones with the entitlement complex. Fact is, we pay subs. Fact is that we are MAD AS HELL over the fact that CCP is embezzling those subs off to non-EVE stuff. We are paying, they are not delivering, and they think WE are the ones acting like entitled unruly little children? The only thing going on here is that we are calling BULL on them.
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.25 04:29:00 - [9] Let us give Hilmar what he wants! I got lucky and two of my accounts were already down to the wire, so I've already got 2 out of 3 characters not training!
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.25 05:01:00 - [10] A new theory I heard: CCP managed to insure EVE somehow, and are burning it down for the insurance money. Compared to what they are actually doing, that would actually make some sort of sense.
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.25 08:36:00 - [11] We need someone who can speak Icelandic to translate the question to Icelandic.
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.25 10:09:00 - [12] Originally by: Kharontos Can someone explain the gravity of the Hilmar e-mail to me? To me it doesn't even come close to admitting non-vanity items for cash. Lets say someone asks you a simple and direct question that has an easy yes or no answer, and giving one of those answers (i.e. no) is both easy and puts the issue to rest while the other answer (i.e. yes) makes you look really really really bad. For example "are you a sex offender"? Then you avoid answering the question. The non-answer means the answer is the "bad" answer.
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.25 19:48:00 - [13] Still here, still angry, still have all 3 accounts un-subbed, still have two of those accounts in an actual lapsed state and waiting for the third to lapse, still hoping CCP decides not to break a successful subscription based MMO that has lasted for years. Still sad that people think businesses are about making money. Businesses are about staying in business and making money is a means to that end. You can destroy a business very profitably, it is what corporate raiders (i.e. Gordon Gekko) do. It is the difference between someone who squanders an inheritance by spending it directly until they have no money left, and someone who invests their inheritance wisely and lives off the interest for their entire life.
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.25 20:24:00 - [14] I guess the following shows how much of a joke the current CCP is, they have literally become their own april-fools joke. http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=549 subscription 2.0 reported by CCP Hammer \| 2008.04.01 00:38:57 \| Comments Here at CCP we care very strongly about our product, and we're constantly evaluating new paradigms and thoughtspaces in order to better realize our Total Market Potential. Our goal is to enhance the customer experience by offering new product channels and opportunities, allowing our customers to participate through selective transactional channels and fully realize their potential as Valued Income Partners û VIPs! Today we're announcing an exciting new service family, which we're calling "Subscription 2.0". In the spirit of Web 2.0, this new Integrated Business Bundle will allow VIPs û that's you! û to participate in the global product community, creating your own Tailored Product Packages in a way which best matches your Ideal Product Experience. Just as Web 2.0 is built on top of Web 1.0, Subscription 2.0 will be built on top of Subscription 1.0. We're not changing the underlying Service Provision Model û you'll still be paying a monthly fee as part of your Community Participation Agreement û although certain product areas will be migrated across to Subscription 2.0 in order to enhance user choice through Selective Resourcing. Subscription 2.0 will allow you to invest in optional product areas on an ad-hoc basis, so you only pay for what you actually want! Our launch product for Subscription 2.0 will be AmmoAnywhere!, which will be fully integrated into the client next week. It does exactly what it says on the tin û simply click the new "AmmoAnywhere!" button in the UI, and a new stack of ammunition will appear in your cargo hold. We've done everything we can to streamline this process, so there's no fiddling about with details and authorization: once you've set up your account to enable Subscription 2.0, clicking "AmmoAnywhere!" will automatically bill your credit card for the transaction as part of the Customer Experience Process. No hassle, no fuss, instant ammunition! Of course, we've had to make a few changes in order to fully realize the Product Delivery Potential of this new service. First up, all weapons will now use "NanoAmmo", which automatically morphs into the desired ammunition type at the point of firing. This ensures that there's no confusion over what ammo types you need to buy, streamlining the customer experience. Secondly, as we're projecting universal uptake for this service, we're removing the ability to manufacture ammunition in order to prevent people from erroneously utilizing manufacturing lines to build ammunition. This means more manufacturing capacity for everyone! Contingent upon a fully realized Product Delivery Potential, we have an additional range of Subscription 2.0 services in the pipeline which will further enhance the Customer Experience Process. These include InstaClone, Dock-O-Matic, T1 and T2 releases of BlueprintNow!, and many more. Subscription 2.0 û the future is TODAY!
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.25 22:05:00 - [15] Channeling best starship captain: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGF1NP-FrCU&feature=player_embedded
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.26 06:10:00 - [16] Originally by: Minigin You are p.stupid if you think this is about a monocle.
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.26 06:33:00 - [17] Originally by: Claire Shala Originally by: Nishachara CCP answer this please: ARE YOU MOVING BEYOND AURUM-FOR-VANITY ITEMS? So i can know should i continue to play and spend time on your game or not. I think I can answer that for you. Selling vanity only items (even at dumb prices) will only net you so much money, not everyone is willing to buy them. The vanity items are also not cheap to design, model and implement, and vanity must be feed and updated continuously. CCP's 6+ month lead time on making 1-2 new models/shirts/accessories would rendered the vanity only NeX store a joke eventually. The only thing they could sell consistently in NeX is pay-to-win things. After that happens, its just a matter of how fast things go down hill. But there is more. The funny thing about most pay-to-win items is they have basically ZERO development cost. Add SP? Probably 10 lines of code to add points to the system already in place. Gold ammo? Take faction ammo, pallet shift the icon, adjust stats and you are done. Same with modules, BPCs and implants. Vanity ships, or 'custom' paintjobs and logos will take more work, they've been requested forever and now that greed and a cracking whip are in full command, you'll see them very soon. Pay-to-win items are just too easy, and too (short term) lucrative for the 'Greed is Good' mentality of CCP to pass up. CCP will not come out and say directly "Yes non-vanity items will be sold." because they are trying to be subtle on this (and only this it seems). String people along, slowly ease 'innocent' pay-to-win items in the store, and hope people are blind enough to not only pay a subscription, but also pay out the nose for items all but required to play the game. IS CCP moving beyond aurum-for-vanity items? Yes, at full speed. Greed is Good after all. Good post. The whole thing that makes me lul is that these clowns make a game where scamming and backstabbing is not only allowed, but almost encouraged, and then they expect to easily hoodwink said user base and get surprised when we see right through them. I've seen Jita local scams that were better than this.
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.26 09:38:00 - [18] Originally by: diaufop
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.26 18:56:00 - [19] SSSSTTTTTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL tactic. Attempt to e-lawyer up some words and drive a wedge. Attempt to frame it in such a way where he gives the non-apology apology and frame it to make him look like the victim. Nothing that resembles a blanket denial of non-vanity items (ololololol I said gold ammo, not gold skill points or gold BPCs, cuz those are TOTALLY different).
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.26 20:19:00 - [20] Originally by: Velios Hillmar, I caved in and bought one of your $60 monocles! People who think this is about a monocle are p.stupid.
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.26 21:54:00 - [21] Originally by: Nyssa Litari Dear CCP, It is not that you made the NeX items unreasonably pricy, although you have. It is not that we merely dislike change. Some of us dislike it, some of us welcome it. It is that your business plan, from everything we can see, intends to take away the gameplay central to Eve; the player-driven economy. You're planning on making players that have spent time training for manufacturing, researching blueprints to wring out research efficiencies compete with a deus ex credit card. Someone else pointed out that many player corporations have standings aid as a service for new recruits. You have players themselves advancing the social mechanics of your game, as part of the gameplay. Do you really think it's a good idea to disrupt that? When we join, we join for the shiny. I joined because I might someday get to fly a Nyx. I'll admit that. But I've stayed, (and paid for new accounts like this one), because it is the players that drive the lore. The epic battles people talk about in chat while mining are the battles that they or their friends participated in, or caused. All of the politics is real. The bad guys are that other group of players that threw a wardec your way. What we're worried about is that you'll start by taking the little things away, like offering standings aid as a player corp service, and move on to bigger things. There will be people that are willing to pay real money for the I-win-mobile. If you think that you can boil a few hundred thousand frogs to reach out to the few thousand teenagers with dad's credit card you'll lose us too. Then you will have lost what makes the game worth playing. You'll lose the experienced FCs that know how to run a fleet and can train noobs to be just as valuable as the pilot in the that T2 cruiser. You'll lose the alliances that police their own territory making the alliance mechanics work. You'll lose the smart players who have poured so much time, thought, and effort into the game. The only kinds of players you gain are the ones with short attention spans. The ones that have no patience. The ones that play a "title" and move on. And what happens when that's your player base? You have to be forever adding "content" like WoW does. Here's the new dance of the month. I've come to hate the term "content" because it's come to be akin to "just give them more icons". I'm not looking for just "content", I'm looking for play. Most of your players today are not kids. I'm in my late thirties. I work in the software field. Like most of your players, I'm not stupid. I am not just a revenue stream. I say these things not in an attempt to gain your respect. I say these things in the hopes that they make you think about the kinds of players you want inhabiting your universe. I won't cancel my account yet. You haven't upended the sandbox yet. Like your CEO suggested, I'll watch what you do more than what you say. I played Star Wars Galaxies, I had a character that made weapons. I had a plan in the game to become the premier gunsmith in my little neighborhood. That was what I was going to play toward. Sony changed the game, I dropped my subscription because it wasn't fun anymore. Please don't do that to us. Regards, Nyssa while(ccp_wrecking_their_game) { QFT++; }
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks	Posted - 2011.06.26 22:20:00 - [22] Originally by: RougeOperator Edited by: RougeOperator on 26/06/2011 21:56:19 Originally by: Angeliq Originally by: RougeOperator Quote: Here's a presentation from the creators of BF:Heroes that explains why Hilmar gives no fcks about the forums. http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win Gonna add that BFH had 7 million users. And it was F2P and micro trans from the start. Its like comparing apples to pineapples. The business model apply. No they dont they are two diffrent models. CCP is trying to Frankenstein on another model. Yea, this is a big part of my issue with this. Nobody gave a damn about P2W potential for Dust514 when it was F2P. People GET that CCP has to pay the bills and turn a profit. I don't see people begrudging them that, and that P2W + F2P is a business model that can work for a game and if Dust514 is designed to service that business model there is nothing wrong with that. Especially if the items can be sold for in-game currency. If anything, I would have told CCP that they were dumb if they thought they could charge the FPS shooter crowd a monthly sub. The problem here is that EVE was not built around F2P. If EVE went F2P, it is completely trivial to break the game. How many industry or datacore alts would there be inside of a day? A million? Ten million? So the sub can never go away. Furthermore, EVE is built around economy, economy, economy. The game SUCKS when you remove that pillar (I mean, really GOD AWFUL). All that you are left with is an over-glorified SISI server. Not even that, because half the reason you log on SISI to blow up ships is to get practice flying a new ship type or fitting before you take it in the "real" game. It is like acting like what works for selling Scions should work for selling BMWs because they are both cars. Honestly, people are angry because CCP seems to be beyond clueless about their own game, not because it "sucks to have to pay more" (because seriously, HOW many accounts does the average person being upset about this have? Money does not appear to be a huge concern for EVE players), and more of a "you greedy idiots! That model WILL NOT WORK with THIS game, you are going to try and get paid twice and end up inheriting the wind".

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CCP operates the "Frank Sinatra" businness model"I'll do it MY WAYYYYYYY".. ♫♪♫♪

ARE YOU MOVING BEYOND AURUM-FOR-VANITY ITEMS?

CCP operates the "Frank Sinatra" businness model

"I'll do it MY WAYYYYYYY".. ♫♪♫♪